Podcast Transcript: The Joy of Actually Giving a F*ck

Listen to our latest podcast where Jayne is in conversation with David Hamilton who has a PhD in organic chemistry and formerly worked in research and development within the pharmaceutical industry, where he developed drugs for cardiovascular disease and cancer. He's now the author of 12 books, including his latest title, "The Joy of Actually Giving a Fuck" and the Amazon bestseller, "The Five Side Effects of Kindness".

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Here's the full transcript:

Jayne:I am absolutely thrilled to be here with you today, David, and really excited that this podcast is going to be released on the day of your new book also hitting the shelves. Yeah, really, really excited. And we've just been chatting about the book, The Joy of Actually Giving a Fuck. And I'd love to hear more about it.

I'd love to hear how the content might also apply to our audience, which are predominantly people looking to avoid burnout or recover from burnout. I know there's lots in there that's relevant. So first of all, when we were chatting, you were talking about the title and how it nearly had another name.

And that name in itself, I'm quite curious about because it's something that sets a different sort of tone. So I'm curious if you could speak a little bit to that.

David: Yeah, thanks, Jayne. So the original title was The Art of Kindfulness. And that title was there for two reasons. One is I was trying to encourage people to cultivate a mindfully kind mindset as they go about their lives.

And the other side of it is research shows that mindfulness as an adaptation of mindfulness meditation, you know what, but at least part of the object of focus is on kindness or pointed in that direction makes everyone kinder. But mindfulness alone, some research shows that it can make some people less kind and more self absorbed in a sense that mindfulness stretches who we originally are. If someone is naturally kind and empathetic, then mindfulness makes you more kind. If someone is lower in empathy, even narcissistic, then mindfulness stretches them in that direction as well. So it stretches in the direction of your existing personality.

Whereas what I was trying to say is we want to make the world a kinder place. So we need to adapt it a little bit and put in a wee bit of kindness, at least for one or two minutes of the practice to push us in that direction. And the reason why my researchers did that is because Buddhist scholars worried about mindfulness having been extracted from its traditional context, which was part of a set of guidelines about being mindfully kind in life, that was its original context.

But that all the spiritual bells and whistles wouldn't have been palatable in the West. So they stripped it down into a single seated practice. So the original content was about that. And that's still the final book content, although I've expanded it a lot more, and I remember thinking to myself one day that I really believe in this message about being mindfully kind and bringing an attitude of kindness to all aspects of your life. And I don't just mean encouraging people to do the big acts of kindness, but recognising that there's joy to be had in the everyday small things that we do all the time. You know, those little words of encouragement that you offer a friend or a family member or a colleague, those little shows of support, the little pat in the back that says, "You've got this!".

And if by chance you don't, then I've got you. You know, those little bits of check in. And it's all these little things and there's huge mental and emotional health benefits to that, and also physiological health benefits. And so, when I was doing all that, I thought, I love the content, but I just remember I had this sinking feeling.

I thought, I so believe in the message of this. But, with the title I'm going with, and the style of writing, the book will never reach beyond my existing readership. And I happened to have read a well-known book called The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. And I thought, I love the title of that.

And it's not about being unkind. That book is just about choosing, as I say, choosing your fucks wisely. Choosing what to prioritise. Which is a really clever book and I really enjoyed it. And I thought, you know what, I'm just gonna go all out there, with a type of title that I've never even considered before.

And I thought, "The Joy of Actually Giving a Fuck", of actually hearing about people, looking out for people. And I pitched it to my publisher and they immediately came back and said, "Absolutely love it! Didn't think you would ever go for anything like that, but there you go". And so what I had to do was radically rewrite everything I'd written already, but in a totally different style, a style that would match the expectations of the title.

Same content, but I just did it in a quirky way, a kind of lighter quirky style. And then in terms of of what you mentioned about your audience, a large section in the book, actually the biggest chapter of the book is about how to be kind to yourself and why that is absolutely vitally, vitally important, lest we burn out, kind of thing.

So what I like about the change in title is it opened up a broader spectrum of things that I could include in the book about, you know, kindness to yourself, how to lead with kindness, how to deal with tricky questions about kindness, as well as how kindness supports your mental and your physical health.

Jayne: I cannot wait to read it. I've got it on order and and it's not yet here and I can't wait for it to be in my hands and to read it all come into life, everything that you're sharing.

David: I hope you enjoy it.

Jayne: I've no doubt I will.

David: If I'm being really, really honest. Having read my own book and edited it so many times, I've no longer any idea if it's good or not.

See, when I first finished it, I thought, I'm so proud of this book. I really feel like I've nailed it. I really feel like I'm gonna help to get this message about the importance of kindness out to a large group. And especially younger people who wouldn't normally touch this sort of book. But now I've edited it so much and iteration after iteration, tweak after tweak.

I've read my own words so many times that it's a blur now and I don't even know if it's good or not. How's that? How's that for a promotion of your own book? Don't buy this book.

Jayne: I don't know if it's any good anymore. I'm sure it's just absolutely fabulous. And yeah, I can't wait to get into it. And there was a few different things that you shared there that, really, I'd love to pick up on one.

One is about this difficulty that people who are naturally kind, anyway, like you talked about the mindfulness and how if you're already quite kind, then mindfulness will amplify your ability to be kind. And those who are naturally quite kind quite often are the people that gravitate to me who've burned out because they're very good at being kind to others, but not to themselves. When you said about that self kindness, I could really feel that ringing true for people listening.

David: Yeah. It's actually the largest chapter of the book because I thought there was so much to say about it.

And you know it's funny what you said about people are naturally kind. It's so common because I think, especially in Western cultures, the idea of being selfless and putting the other person first and all, you know, it's, it's given, you know, maybe the word glorified isn't the right word, but you know, it's considered something in really high esteem.

It's even written in our religions and our spiritualities about the importance of putting others before yourself and all that kind of stuff. And I think because it's given such high esteem, deep in the human psyche, we feel guilty about including ourselves in that because we feel then I'm then depriving someone else.

How selfish am I? And then it's compounded by some people's attitudes that it's selfish to be kind to yourself. And so one of the things that I tried to do was, was help us to realise that that's just a misunderstanding. You know, self kindness doesn't mean, doesn't by definition say put yourself in front of others.

It doesn't say that at all. It really just means include yourself. There's no order of it. There's no me instead of you, me in front of you, me after you. There's no order at all. It's just including yourself. And it's like, you know, there's a, there's a line, there's two extremes.

Over here, there's a, point where it feels, to use a very well used analogy, you can't pour from an empty cup. Yeah. And I use that because although it's well used, it's also really meaningful for a lot of people. And sometimes when your cup is full and it's overflowing and you feel you've got lots of energy and time and mental, emotional abundancy and resources, your cup is full.

You've got lots of time and ability to help other people. And that's great. But there's other times in our lives. And that time changes depending on what's happening in our lives. And it's in a different place for each of us, that our cup feels completely empty. And we're at the other end of the, the scale now.

And the first thing we have to do right now is fill up our own cup. And that means doing whatever is necessary to cater for your own needs. Otherwise, you burn out. Otherwise there's nothing left of you with which to help other people. And I talk about in the book, a sweet spot that's somewhere between here and here, that, like, in a balance point, that's different, where each of us finds some degree of stability. Where we're helping other people, but we're also aware of our own needs. And it's a stable point, that's different for each of us. You know, because sometimes in our lives, we are over here. Sometimes in our lives we're over there, and what's necessary for me right now might not be necessary for someone else right now.

So that balance point, that stable point is in a different place for each of us at different times in our life. But I think just recognising that there is such a point immediately makes us aware that we have to look after ourselves and we have to find out where am I on that line right now. And you know, one of the things that I've learned to do, and this might appeal to people who are very naturally very kind, is if people need help or need our time, we always manage to find time for them, don't we? And even if I look at my diary, I'll move things around and always find a wee way to fit something in, even if I'm shifting some of my own priorities out the way. And I realised to myself, what if I include myself?

What if I put in my diary, meeting with self? And that is a meeting that I'm putting in my diary. Therefore, it has the same psychological weight to it. By being in print, as I'm meeting with someone else. And I'm dedicating that to my mental health. And I don't need to have one every day.

Or some days, not even every week. Sometimes. When my cup is empty, I have it quite a lot, but other times I don't need it for like a month or so, you know, and it depends. But when you need it, I make sure that meeting's in there. It might be half an hour. It might be 45 minutes. It might be an hour. In fact, there was a time not so long ago I had a whole morning to myself, and mornings are my most productive time.

And one of the things I did was I watched an episode of Star Trek. During my most productive time, but what a statement that is to your own psyche that says, I value my mental health and I will do what is necessary to support my own needs for the purpose of one, supporting my mental health and secondly, so that I can continue to have the energy to be kind to other people and show up for other people, because I can't show up for other people unless my cup is full enough at that stable point. It needs to be full enough for me to show up for other people. So it's getting that in our heads that my cup needs to be full enough that I can show up for other people.

So I need to know where that point is for me kind of thing.

Jayne: I think that's a really interesting , reframe as well for people who are kind of all or nothing, which again often leads to burnout and therefore if they think about self care, if they're all in or all out on other things in their life, then the contemplation of being all in on self care feels like too big a feat that just enough but it breaks it down and makes it, like you said, it could just be a small amount of time in the same way you find it for someone else.

Why can't you find it for yourself?

David: Absolutely. And, and also like another kind of reframe , when I was talking to people about this particular chapter is so many of my friends have this idea that the only way to practice self care, self kindness is a lavish, expensive treat for yourself on a big spa day.

And I was surprised at how many people thought, when I asked them, what's your idea of self care, self kindness? And the number of people that thought, you know, I live not that far from Edinburgh. I live in a wee town called Dunblane. Edinburgh has a hotel called the Sheraton Grand that has, for me, one of the best spas I've ever been in my life.

But it's amazing how many people in my local area that I asked who said, oh, a day at the Sheraton spa, kind of thing. And while that is absolutely wonderful, and I totally encourage it, it's not, it's only one small way that you can practice self kindness. There's a million ways you can do it. You know, just doing something that has meaning for you, finding something that's meaningful.

And then doing it on purpose. And you know, it's the doing it on purpose bit. It's saying, I am doing this because I know it is self care. And therefore, the act of doing it is self kindness in and of itself. Even if it's a small thing. Look, I, I like to cook. I'm not MasterChef. But I like to adapt to recipes.

But doing that on purpose, for me, knowing that that's something that's meaningful for me, that's what makes an act of self kindness, an act of self care.

Jayne: I think that's really really powerful, that connection that we would make. When you said about putting it in the calendar, because then it holds more weight.

All of these suggestions you're making for me, they might be small in essence, but the impact of them is huge because we're treating something about ourselves as importantly as we would treat something for someone else by the physical act of booking it in, which most of us nowadays that's what we're dependent on. You know, otherwise we miss things. Of course, we're going to miss our self care and we think, oh yeah, I'll do that at some stage tomorrow.

David: Book in that episode of Star Trek. Or whatever else you like to watch.

Jayne: So I'm wondering David, you mentioned about narcissistic people in there, and I've got a particular passion for helping people again to overcome narcissistic characters in their lives, because a common thread through clients seems to be narcissistic parents and the impact of that or narcissistic bosses, you know, as well, I've had people who have worked for somebody that's completely eroded them of their confidence because of the style that that person had and the way they've approached them. And with, with all the kindness in the world, I wonder how do you support or recommend people look at being kind to people that are difficult in their lives.

How do we find it with everyone?

David: Yeah, it's a tricky thing. And one of the things I realised, I have a chapter called Kindness Conundrums, and it's tackling some of these similar kind of tricky questions. And when I started writing it, what I really wanted to say was, here's a formula, and do this all the time and you'll be fine. But there's no single way to act because it depends. Yes. Depends on the context, it depends on the people. And what I found myself describing was a middle way. Like in between both extremes almost all of the time for the questions because it depends. Let's suppose it was someone who was, you know, just always taking advantage and never really saying anything positive to you on one side of it, depending upon how you feel and whether you feel you have the energy resources, one of the things that I often do is I try to reach for a thought that you never know, either what that person's dealing with now, or what they have dealt with in the past that's shaped who they are right now. Might not be the answer, but sometimes, if I can find that, because I can't always find it, depends on the person, depends on the situation.

But if I can find that, what it does is it changes how I respond, because I feel all of a sudden a surge of energy on the inside. That I'm no longer treating this as a threat. Yeah, and I'm not feeling threatened. I'm not responding as if that behaviour is a threat. I've actually now by reaching for that thought I'm now responding from what feels to me like a much more empowered way. When I feel I can say something else that I might avoid saying but I'm saying it from a position of power now. But if I can't find that thought because of the context, maybe the person is so threatening in, in your face. I can't find that and a lot of times you can't. Then I go to the other side and I say, okay, I need to look after my own health here. And I've got to decide what I have to do. Do I have to leave the room? Or whatever the room means in the broader context. Do I have to get away from here? You know, or is there a middle ground somewhere, somewhere in the middle?

So I try to reach for that first. I always try to go for the, the thought you never know what a person's dealing with or what they have gone through in their lives that shaped who they are right now. The upbringing they've had, maybe some experiences that people tend not to talk about to be really honest.

But they've worked through some difficult chapters in their life, and that's all buried in the past. But it's shaped who they are right now. Some people come out of these things really well and other people come out really struggling and it shapes them into what seems like a not so nice person.

And so I reach for that idea first, but it's not always possible. And if it's not possible for me, then I've got to look after myself and I've got to go the other way and say, okay, I need, I need to find, I need to fill up my own cup, look after myself first. And then maybe another time I can come back there.

Maybe I can change how I think of that situation, but I'm no longer there.

Jayne: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really, really great advice and absolutely because we really don't know.

David: There's no one size fits all, is there, Jayne?

Jayne: No, there really isn't. No.

David: I wanted there to be, because I was writing this chapter. Yeah, because that's the kind of self helping chapter, and you want to have guidelines, this such as, do this, do that, and the actual fact that it depends, and there's no one size fits all. But I think in that way, that's actually quite empowering, because kindness and compassion is something that's unique to every situation.

And I think maybe the answer is the middle ground, is to look for a middle ground if you can, and it might be somewhere between here and somewhere between there, but look for a middle ground a lot of the time, it's not always possible. Sometimes you've got to go over here. Other times you can go over there. It just depends.

Jayne: And again, I think that, that snippet there could be applied to so many things for people in their lives in general, where they notice that they tend to give too much put in too much effort, work too many hours, you know, they're all the overdoing, over giving, overstaying. If we can find a middle ground with most things we do, it often serves us well.

Yeah. I'm wondering in terms of other aspects of what you bring into the book, I know your background is, it's quite rich in science and understanding how things affect us at the level of our physiology. What actually goes on in the chemistry of the body when we are kind in, in sort of layman's terms.

David:  Do you know, Jayne, it's really beautiful actually, because sometimes people say when you're being kind, you're, you're, I'm speaking from the heart or I'm acting from the heart. One of the most beautiful bits of science I've ever come across is speaking or acting from the heart, it actually benefits physiologically your heart.

Because leading with kindness, whether it's something you say or something you do, generates a little hormone in our blood vessels and in the brain that actually lowers your blood pressure. And, and it's a well known hormone. You know, most women are familiar with oxytocin. Yeah. But oxytocin is well known for its reproductive role in reproduction and in, in bonding and trust.

But it's also a significantly important cardiovascular hormone. And that's what very few people know. You know, after my PhD I worked in cardiovascular medicine, so, so I've been aware of this for a long time. In fact, we know about Oxytocin's cardiovascular role from research on women who are breastfeeding.

And when researchers wondered why their blood pressure was usually lower, it was always assumed because it's because it's relaxing until they realised that in actual fact our blood vessels aligned with what are known as oxytocin receptors. And it's nature's way of producing a physical effect on the heart when you bond with the infant. So there's a physical effect on the heart. It's not just that it's relaxing. When you're nursing an infant, there is a physical effect through this hormone binding to your blood vessels that causes an expansion, causes a release in tension in the walls of the blood vessels. They expand. The heart doesn't have to push quite as hard. So the heart eases off its pressure. What you get is a reduction in blood pressure. But I call oxytocin a kindness hormone. Because it's produced in response to experiences of kindness. And I say that word experiences of kindness, that phrase, sorry, because that can mean you're the giver of kindness.

It's also produced sometimes when you're the receiver of kindness, but also when you're the witness of it, when you're just observing other people being kind and you feel it moves you or you're watching it on a social media video or a YouTube video and it moves you. And by the same frame, we're still producing this kindness hormone.

You know, one of my favourite wee studies in this is scientists asked a bunch of people who'd been diagnosed with hypertension, with high blood pressure. And they gave them a sum of money each week for three weeks. Half of these people, they asked to spend the money on themselves.

And the other half, they asked to spend it on others. At the end of the three weeks, they measured the blood pressure. And those who'd spent the money on others had significantly lower blood pressure, both systolic and diastolic, than those who'd spent the money on themselves. Isn't that amazing? And the strength of the effect was comparable to antihypertensive medication or to taking regular exercise.

Isn't that phenomenal?

Jayne: That is phenomenal.

David: And I call this, this whole physiological process nature's reward. It's like we are genetically wired to be kind and to benefit physiologically and healthfully from kindness. So I think of it as nature's reward. Every time you do something that's kind, that's generous, that's heartfelt, that's honest, that's helping to unite us all, whether in families or communities or wider than that.

It's like nature's giving us a high five and saying, here's my reward. Well done for doing something that keeps us together. Here's a squirt of happy hormones and a wee squirt of cardiovascular hormones just for the trouble you took for doing that kind of thing.

Jayne: And it's sort of weird that that word honest that you included in that feels really relevant.

It has to be. Spontaneous and coming from the heart versus that bit that would have said, Oh, I need to do good because, you know with any other connotations.

David: You know, Jayne, actually, in the book, I call this nature's catch 22. Okay. Right. So nature rewards us for being kind, and it's because we're genetically wired for it.

We have kindness genes, believe it or not, but the whole human body is wired in such a way to benefit from acts of love, empathy, compassion, sympathy, you know, anything that bonds us, that creates stronger bonds and communities, anything. We are genetically wired, physiologically wired to benefit from these things.

If and only if you mean it. I call it nature's catch 22 and the reason being is the reason why we benefit is because of what the experience is like for you. It feels nice. Jonathan Haidt, a lovely social psychologist calls it elevation. And so it's that elevated feeling you get, you know, it's that that feeling, whether it's through kindness, compassion, empathy, anything heart centred.

And so, because of what that positive feeling is like, you generate kindness hormones. And it's the kindness hormones that are bringing about all the physiological changes. But if you don't mean it, then you're not having an experience of kindness. You're having a psychological thing, but you're not having a heartfelt thing.

So there's no kindness hormones. You only produce the kindness hormones if it's honest and real and you mean it. So you have to mean it to feel it. So that's why I call it nature's catch 22. Nature gives you all these benefits if and only if you mean it.

Jayne: Love that. I can literally feel my heart warming talking about that as well.

I'm wondering about those who get particularly anxious and where this could link in to support in, in a physiological way in terms of that anxiety for some people, of course, everybody is different and will experience it in different parts of their body. But for many people, there is something that happens in their physical heart when they're feeling anxious.

And I'm, I'm wondering where there might be a connection there.

David: Yeah. Well, I actually, anxiety is something I have had a lot of experience personally with, because I've struggled with anxiety on and off all through my life. Really, since I was a child. And and in many ways, funnily enough, you're so perceptive because I've got a whole chapter called The Opposite of Stress.

Because, when I ask people what is the opposite of stress, almost everyone will go to peace or calm. Peace or calm are not the opposite of stress, they're the absence of stress. The opposite of stress is kindness. Although, let me reword that, because kindness is a thing you do. Stress is a feeling and experience. The opposite of the experience of kindness and what that is like for you is the experience of stress and what that's like for you and partly the opposite as well of anxiety.

Stress and anxiety when you look at the brain, one of the central processing areas is the amygdala in the brain, but it turns out that experiences of kindness which produce our kindness hormones, kindness hormones actually bind to and dial down the intensity of the amygdala in the brain. So literally a place that's central in stress, worry, fear, anxiety, kindness hormones literally dial down the intensity, like a volume control that's too loud and you turn it down or a dimmer switch in a room that's too brightly lit and you want to have a nice candlelit dinner and the room's too bright, you turn the dimmer switch down. So kindness hormones actually bind, we see that from MRI studies, actually bind to the amygdala and dial down the intensity, it goes 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4 down and down to a lower intensity. Something's are a natural feeling when we feel anxious or stressed is, I'm going to sit down and relax, and of course that absolutely works, but what can work just as well, sometimes even better, is to do something kind, do something helpful, pick up the phone, reach out to someone who needs help, and ask, check in with someone, do something, even if it's possible, reach for a kind thought, sometimes when you're feeling anxious, that's not possible, so physically, see if there's something you can do to help someone, and it's not just a distraction, there's a physiological effect in the brain and the heart, which literally counteracts the feeling, literally at the cellular level.

Jayne: Hmm. That's fascinating. Yes. I can't help but think about kittens and puppies.

David: They're really good for your heart.

Jayne: I was thinking that because the desire to be kind couldn't be stronger than when you're well for me, at least when there's a beautiful little fluffy animal in front of me and that nurturing, I was thinking about what you described about mothers when they're feeding and that instinctive aspect that, that gets stimulated when, when there's something there that naturally, instinctively you want to nurture.

Yeah. Okay.

David: Jayne, you could have written the outline of my book yourself. Cause I actually covered that as well. You're so perceptive with this because there's research that shows that dogs, cats, kittens, , rabbits, horses, animals that we bond with, there is a very, very significant and strong protective effect against heart attack and stroke. When we have animals in our lives, like dogs, cats, kittens, rabbits, horses, that we bond with on a regular basis, very strong protective effect. And a large reason for that protective effect, again, comes back to our kindness hormones that are generated in abundance when we bond, when we stroke them.

I mean, although you used kittens as an example, a really well studied example in science of, of, of dog owners interacting with their dogs, only because historically, research had wondered, had found that there's a protective effect from having dogs in your life. And they assumed it was due to the walking that you do.

But then they realised that it isn't just the walking because the strength of the effect is the same for cats and kittens and, and rabbits and horses. So you don't walk a kitten or a cat, so it can't just be the walking. So historically what they did is they found that just over a 30 minute period of interacting with the animal, and it would be the same whether it's a dog or a cat or a kitten or a rabbit, it wouldn't matter, there was a, a, a 300 percent increase in levels of kindness hormones in 30 minutes, greater than 10 percent per minute.

Wow. Over half an hour. The study only ran for half an hour. Now, having formerly worked in cardiovascular medicine, if someone had said to me, you could increase levels of a cardio protective hormone, i. e. your kindness hormones, by 10 percent in 30 minutes, by just stroking a kitten, or a dog, or a cat, I would take that.

But it wasn't 10 percent in 30 minutes, it's 10 percent per minute. Wow. Over 30 minutes. That is, that just blew me away. Having worked in cardiovascular medicine, if someone had said 10 percent in total, I'd have taken it. I'm getting a dog or a kitten tomorrow. But 10 percent per minute?

Wow. It was greater than 300 percent increase over the 30 minutes. They only stopped it at 30 minutes because the experiment was set up for 30 minutes. And that's just a 30 minute period of interacting warmly, lovingly and affectionately with the animal. So the underlying reason for the significant protective effect against heart attack and stroke isn't the exercise, it's the bonding and the stroking and that interaction that you have consistently several moments throughout the day.

Jayne: Wow.

David: Phenomenal, isn't it?

Jayne: It really is. It really, really is. Oh, it's, it's just been phenomenal having you for the interview and thank you for being so kind and generous with your time to be here and to share with me. I'm going to write it into whatever I write next that some recommendation about everyone spending more time with animals to reduce the likelihood of heading towards burnout.

David: Absolutely. But it's, it's funny how, like, sometimes it's the simplest things that are the most powerful, isn't it? Sometimes just simple things just because this is our nature. It's the care. Our nature is to care, whether it's to a human or an animal, it's your nature. And when you allow that nature to come to the surface, nature rewards you and says, okay, then here's a wee squirt of happy hormones and here's a wee something nice for your heart.

Here's something that will support your immune system that will keep you here longer. Because nature said, well, if you're being kind and that helps all of us, I want you to be here longer. So here's some stuff for you, wee hormones and things that will keep you on this planet longer. And that's how it works.

Jayne: I love that. If you're going to be kind, I won't be here longer.

David: Pretty much how it works.

Jayne: Yeah. Oh, thank you. I wish I could keep you longer, but I'm gonna need to let you go, . Thank you so much, David.

David: Oh, my pleasure, Jayne thank you.